[Dukefanforever]

Originally Posted by bnonit

Okay either your a Hollow or a Shinigami, after becoming a Hollow I don't think you can transubstantiate again. Also Ichigo's only hollow power is the mask, he does not have a hollow form. If Ichigo became a Hollow, which I doubt, then he would no longer be able to use a zanpaktou. If by some strange and further twist he naturally became an arrancar that fast, then his zanpaktou would allow for a Hollow release, again which I doubt.

So far what you all seem to be describing and hoping is something that transcends the current bondaries of power. As we've learned Vaizards and Arrancar are the only possible fusion, there is no next level.

Okay, I get what you mean, but, how do you know that there's no next level or that some weird type of vasto lorde can't have a shinigami's sword? Everything that we know could completely change in just one chapter.

[Theinen]

Originally Posted by bnonit

Okay either your a Hollow or a Shinigami, after becoming a Hollow I don't think you can transubstantiate again. Also Ichigo's only hollow power is the mask, he does not have a hollow form. If Ichigo became a Hollow, which I doubt, then he would no longer be able to use a zanpaktou. If by some strange and further twist he naturally became an arrancar that fast, then his zanpaktou would allow for a Hollow release, again which I doubt.

So far what you all seem to be describing and hoping is something that transcends the current bondaries of power. As we've learned Vaizards and Arrancar are the only possible fusion, there is no next level.

Wrong my friend. So very wrong. On all accounts. First, hollows can become a plus and then by relation, a shinigami because once they're slain by a zanpakuto, they're actually purified and sent to SS. He has a hollow form. It's lizard like, hyper regeneration, claws, spikes along the shoulders, a tail, yellow mane, yellow hair at the wrists and ankles and red markings along the body. That was indeed his hollow form. All the vizard have one. So far we've seen his, Kensei's and his lieutenant. Shinji was shown somewhat midways in his transformation but Kisuke stopped his transformation. Even if you don't count the arrancar's zanpakuto as a genuine thing, because I don't, it has no spirit, just sealed power, we've seen it's not the case with Ichigo at the very least. Since he HAD become a full hollow and was still wielding Tensa Zangetsu, in addition to Hichigo wielding his on white version and having access to a bankai, it's pretty safe to say that he WILL have a zanpakuto still. Becoming a Arrancar is not a drawn out process, Aizen does it instantly with the HBomb and all you have to do is break the mask it seems. So I believe the process can be done "that fast", and vice versa with the vizard since Kensei's lieutenant, forget her name, could maintain her mask for 15hrs at first use and had one of the quickest inner battles of all vizard.

And it's funny that you would choose those exact words for "transcending the boundaries of current power" since that's EXACTLY what Aizen is doing. I think the merger is, in all likelihood, what will actually happen. A Vizard is a shinigami that has attained hollow power (and accepted by their group technically lol "having a mask doesn't make you a vizard"). An arrancar is a hollow that has broken their mask and obtained a "zanpakuto". Both of these instances are results from research by shinigami who wanted to break the barrier. Through Aizen's own admission, Kisuke was closer to perfecting it than he was. That does not mean that the HBomb is the perfected method. Ichigo became a shinigami and a hollow at the same time. There was never any barrier for him to break. He only needs to learn to control the power. THAT is where he's different and a true merger can happen making him the perfect being. It's the only real logical outcome to this.

[Dukefanforever]

I completely agree with you, Theinen.

[Gosurori-Otaku]

Originally Posted by bnonit

Okay either your a Hollow or a Shinigami, after becoming a Hollow I don't think you can transubstantiate again. Also Ichigo's only hollow power is the mask, he does not have a hollow form. If Ichigo became a Hollow, which I doubt, then he would no longer be able to use a zanpaktou. If by some strange and further twist he naturally became an arrancar that fast, then his zanpaktou would allow for a Hollow release, again which I doubt.

So far what you all seem to be describing and hoping is something that transcends the current bondaries of power. As we've learned Vaizards and Arrancar are the only possible fusion, there is no next level.

He has a hollow form. Check out the chapters with Ichigo's Vaizard (Visored?) training for more info.

And besides, Arrancar are Hollow with a bit of Shinigami mixed in (to put it simply) and the Vaizard are Shinigami with Hollow in them (Also put basically...) Anyway, there are probably lots more combinations, like Kaien Shiba. He ended up as a fusion of a Hollow and a Shiigami, right? So depending on how you fuse the two, you'd get totally different results.

Um, yeah... that's enough of my rambling for today...

(Anyone else agree with my random points? Anyone at all?)

[tetsuo_godmode]

wait a tick!
if all Vizard have the Hichigo type of hollow being inside them, do all arrancar have shinigami guys inside them?

[Theinen]

Originally Posted by tetsuo_godmode

wait a tick!
if all Vizard have the Hichigo type of hollow being inside them, do all arrancar have shinigami guys inside them?

No. Somebody phrased that wrong. From how it was explained, Arrancar Zanpakuto represent their power that has been willingly sealed away. It's not a weapon after they release, it's part of their body regrown. It was explained and really expressed with Ishida fought that chick and she weakened herself by cutting off her wings because Ishida had made them useless. Also, apparently doing it like that meant she couldn't re-seal her zanpakuto, if it's possible at all since we haven't seen an arrancar do it yet. Their zanpakuto have no spirits like a shinigami's, so i don't consider them true zanpakuto.

The Vizard were shinigami that were actually infused with hollow. Arrancar just break off their masks.

[bnonit]

Originally Posted by Gosurori-Otaku

He has a hollow form. Check out the chapters with Ichigo's Vaizard (Visored?) training for more info.

And besides, Arrancar are Hollow with a bit of Shinigami mixed in (to put it simply) and the Vaizard are Shinigami with Hollow in them (Also put basically...) Anyway, there are probably lots more combinations, like Kaien Shiba. He ended up as a fusion of a Hollow and a Shiigami, right? So depending on how you fuse the two, you'd get totally different results.

Um, yeah... that's enough of my rambling for today...

(Anyone else agree with my random points? Anyone at all?)

Okay, I do realize the holes in my speculation when Theinen summed it up but your dancing further away form the truth than I was. As far as Kaien goes, he was eaten by a hollow so he no longer existed. Granted that hollow was able to use his body and power but that was in fact the hollow.

Now in defense of myself, I hadn't actually considered the Soul Burial on the account of hollow's, since that's not really transubstantial. But the whole Hollow Form issue, I do remember seeing the transformed Ichigo and Kensei but where has it been mentioned that they can use these forms freely. As per the situations they were becoming Hollow, not becoming pure hybrid. As far as Aizen goes, if either of these methods were even a hint of success of achieving something new then he would've used it on him self. I mean his true goal, power (or God-hood), would definately put him first in line to receive these transcended powers, but they don't exist as of yet.

Don't be so dramatic, I wasn't "wrong on all acounts", I just hadn't considered all the aspects. I understand the current 'boundaries of power' can be exceeded and new ones set, but that wasn't my point.

Oh and on another sidenote, it was mentioned that of all the 'seen' naturally ocurring arrancar, none were complete. If it was an instant and simple process then there would be a lot more 'natural' arrancar around. Aizen wouldn't use the HBomb on Ichigo, so why even bring that up. The instance being referred to was about Ichigo, no one (or thing) else.

[Theinen]

Originally Posted by bnonit

Okay, I do realize the holes in my speculation when Theinen summed it up but your dancing further away form the truth than I was. As far as Kaien goes, he was eaten by a hollow so he no longer existed. Granted that hollow was able to use his body and power but that was in fact the hollow.

Now in defense of myself, I hadn't actually considered the Soul Burial on the account of hollow's, since that's not really transubstantial. But the whole Hollow Form issue, I do remember seeing the transformed Ichigo and Kensei but where has it been mentioned that they can use these forms freely. As per the situations they were becoming Hollow, not becoming pure hybrid. As far as Aizen goes, if either of these methods were even a hint of success of achieving something new then he would've used it on him self. I mean his true goal, power (or God-hood), would definately put him first in line to receive these transcended powers, but they don't exist as of yet.

Don't be so dramatic, I wasn't "wrong on all acounts", I just hadn't considered all the aspects. I understand the current 'boundaries of power' can be exceeded and new ones set, but that wasn't my point.

Oh and on another sidenote, it was mentioned that of all the 'seen' naturally ocurring arrancar, none were complete. If it was an instant and simple process then there would be a lot more 'natural' arrancar around. Aizen wouldn't use the HBomb on Ichigo, so why even bring that up. The instance being referred to was about Ichigo, no one (or thing) else.

Dunno who suggested the HBomb being used on Ichigo, so not even gonna touch that. But there are no "natural" Arrancar. That is an artificial evolution, they break their masks. Arrancar actually means "ripped off". And again, it is very much so instant. If my assumption is right and Ichigo is the proper way to make a true hybrid, then it would be impossible for Aizen to achieve, since Kisuke "gave" Ichigo his shinigami powers and his inner hollow simultaneously. Aizen was already a shinigami, he would become more like a vizard. Now as far as being able to turn into that form willingly? That does not mean they're incapable. A shinigami doesn't have bankai as soon as they create their zanpakuto, nor shikai. That does not mean the release isn't possible. Whenever Hichigo surfaced, Ichigo was turning into a hollow. Not only does everyone comment on his reiatsu becoming like that of a hollow every time, but the mask was constantly growing over his face. We've seen them with a hollow form, so it IS possible. And again, I've only suggested that Ichigo is a pure hybrid, not the vizard.

[tetsuo_godmode]

@Theinen- i agree with your thought that ichigo is the natural or pure hybrid of hollow and shinigmi but the thing is for some reason or another (probably because he suppressed the hollow side) he ended up with a pair of consciouses instead of one singular being, so technically for him to reach his full potential he has to accept Hichigo as part of himself

[bnonit]

Now, that's a good thought and an even better chance of happening, hopefully. Ichigo is as close to perfection, if not definately already there, than anyone else could ever become.