[tigerfantom]

Well i'm not really confused,but I happend to discover something that could have been a typo or was always there and may have proved my thoery right. Well i was reading Noah's memory 4 and it's about Skin's past and stuff and when road and the earl came and talked to him she said your one of the "13" Children God created, your an apostle carrying the genes of noah". Ok now weren't their suppose to be 14 noahs???? Or did she just didn't meantion him because he dead. Then after skin accepted his ture noah self his reflection in the mirror was like crazy, just like Allen's when he entered the 14th noah's secret room. So in this new knowledge as i was discussing with another member Allen walker could be the new 14th or a noah altogether!!!!!!!!! Anyone else think so????

[seeliespright]

[cut stupid bit]

For the second part, I don't think Allen is a Noah. Yes, he is connected with the Earl in a strange way, but I think that is part of his special destiny to be the antithesis of the Earl; and he's connected because he was cursed when Mana came back as an akuma - so now his eye evolves like the akuma do. Besides, it was the 13th Noah who appeared behind Allen, and that Noah is good; it's not like there's an evil spirit haunting him.

[misao]

well.. i think mana might have been the 14th.... and he died leaving the 14th's curse on allen... or something like that.... because otherwise why would there be the language they invented ??

[seeliespright]

[cut stupid bit]

Now, it is entirely possible - and others have speculated - that Mana was the 14th Noah himself. It would make sense then that the music needed to play the Ark was the language invented by Mana and Allen, and explain why the Noah is now haunting Allen. I don't like this idea because I don't like to think that Mana was a Noah since that would mean that Mana purposely picked orphan Allen and raised him with a hidden (and selfish?) intent. I like to think that Mana was all good, a strange magician / tinkerer, but someone who loved Allen and wanted to care for him. I think that was suggested in the flashback to when Allen turned Mana into an akuma and then destroyed him; and Mana said, "I love you." before his soul departed.

Now that I think about it, the fact that Mana was able to be turned into an akuma argues strongly against the possibility that he was a Noah. Noahs are supposed to be special, and it would just be really strange if one died and his soul was so easily brought back and controlled.

The other possibility why the music to play the Ark was Allen and Mana's script is because the Ark adapted itself to that format, as it was in-tune with Allen. Thus, the Ark and / or the 14th Noah could have even created the entire room with the piano, just for Allen who was destined to play it. It would then be like an interface that adapts to the user. This possibility removes Mana from the equation altogether.

[tigerfantom]

True that if Mana was an noah his soul wouldn't come back so easily as an akuma,but he is still human and have a human soul.

But seeliespright i have on question man where in the world did you get a 13th noah from, i can't remember where in the story they mentioned a 13th, the 14th "the musician" is the only one I know betrayed the Earl, if you read ch87 "Theordore enters" the earl talks to jasidevil about the noah who betrayed him, and when the pictures show an idea on what he looked like it showed a noah giving his powers as a controller to human and when they did show it they had the piano and the score in the back.

Now your theory about Mana and Allen's language possibaly being adopted into the piano is kinda crazy because if that was the case anyone could just randomly play the piano and the earl could have moved the posiiton of the noah's ark a long time ago. Mana has to be the 14th noah though his death is alittle crazy since the earl said he killed him,but when we saw mana die he was no where near the earl, but remember noah's have special powers and he could have spilt himself or something and when the earl killed the one halve the other died as well. And i do believe that Mana knew allen was an excosist so he raised him to learn the language of the piano, take his will, and kill the earl.

And though ya'll might think it's crazy I believe that mana wanted to be turned into a man so he can give allen the curse to see the souls of the akuma. Just think about it if you see the anime or manga when mana came as an akuma the earl didn't give an order to kill him but mana attacked him saying "i curse you" instead of killing him. Then he was attacked by allen's awakening anti-akuma weapon and mana could have easily got back up but instead he stayed down and told allen to kill him and this is after earl finally gave mana an order to attack allen. When is the last time you heard an akuma tell someone to kill them and I love when the final blow was dealt???? Yeah Mana has to be something really crazy....oh and don't forget he came back as a soul which fused with allen's skull and return his eye as well as upgraded it....What the heck!!!!

[seeliespright]

>.< The site was down last night so I couldn't post, but here it is now:

Gomene, I just reread that part. (Chapter 130). I thought 13th because it's an unlucky number, and that number got stuck in my head instead of 14th. Also because there were 12 apostles of Christ, and the Noahs are supposed to be the apostles of the Earl, and he is the dark-Christ, so 13 - 1 betrayer = 12 apostles. I had the number in my head for a reason, but I was totally incorrect so, sorry!

I stick to my theory on the other part though.

If Mana were not a Noah, which I hope he wasn't and think it's about 50/50 he is/isn't: I think Allen was the one destined to play the ark, and because he was the one, the ark adapted to a framework he would understand - producing the sheet music he and Mana created. I don't think anyone else could have played the ark besides Allen, regardless of whether this or the theory to follow are correct. Since the Earl was playing a piano in the new ark, I think the piano was already there, but the sheet music could have been generated by the ark or by the 14th Noah so that Allen could read it.

I think it is equally possible that Mana was the 14th Noah, and that he taught Allen the music, knowing that Allen was destined to need it later to play the ark. That would also explain the somewhat smug attitude of the 14th Noah, just hanging around and waiting for Allen to act.

I can't remember very well, but I do remember that it was Allen's master who told him he could play the ark. I don't remember if he said, "You can play the music" or just "You can play the ark". If he said the first, then he would have known about the music that Mana taught Allen, but if the second, he would just know that Allen was destined to play the ark regardless of Mana or not (and I think he said the second).

I just reread Chapter 3 Pentangle where it happens, and it's not really as you said. When akuma first come forth, they kill the person who summoned them, and then inhabit their body, binding the soul to them. When Mana came forth, he attacked Allen just as all of the akuma do, and it was Allen's hand that prevented Mana from killing Allen, not any restraint of his own. The reason Mana stayed down after that was because he had been torn in half by Allen's claw. I think the mangaka for poetic reasons allowed that Mana could for a moment have a sense of himself again, and not be wholly consumed by the anger of the akuma, so he was able to say, "I love you. Please kill me." in the end. You'll remember also when Allen kills the akuma of the nun, and the soul as it departs thanks Allen.

Was that Mana who came back? I remember a skull coming and fusing with his eye, but I didn't think it was Mana. I just thought it was a dark power because his eye, while good because it can see the souls of akuma, is a dark and cursed thing - and evolves just as the akuma do. Correct me if I'm off about that too.

[tigerfantom]

yo reread ch 3 again and read the first chapter as well because like i said when a soul come back into the akuma shell the earl orders the akuma to kill that person. Mana wasn't ordered to attack allen yet,but he cursed him instead of killing him remember. And yeah it is possible that he had some sense as an human when he was an akuma just like some souls,but when the minister's wife died as an akuma she then said thankyou but not as an akuma...

but yea it was mana who came back read it again and if you watch the anime version allen says welcome back Mana,which i really don't understand,but anyway 157 should tell us everything about the 14th since Cross said he'll tell that head dude about it. Oh and yeah Cross knew Allen could play the piano remember he gave allen the sheet to play it and said only he could play it???? that's why allen was confused about how and why the musical score was characters he and mana made up along time ago. Honestly it would be very very gay if mana wasn't the 14th because i spent all this time speculating about him being a noah when i was watching the anime back in 2006 when his soul came back and fused with allen's and noticing he wore a hat similair to the hats the noah and the earl wears. Well watever Cross sucks azz, the earl suxks more, and tiki hard as stuff LOL

[seeliespright]

Yup, I just reread it, and I was correct; I think we're just misunderstanding each other because I'm pretty sure our readings are the same for the Mana bit.

Mana came back into the machinery skeleton. He was extremely angry (as akuma always are when they are recalled) and attacks Allen saying, "I'll curse you," and then he cuts and curses Allen's eye. Then Allen's hand activates, swipes Mana-skeleton and nearly destroys him. Allen's hand drags him toward Mana to finish the job, and Mana says, "Allen, I love you. Please destroy me," and Allen's hand does and it's over. Nowhere in the action does the Earl order Mana to do anything. In fact, as soon as Allen's hand activates and swipes Mana the first time, the Earl disappears, transporting himself elsewhere.

Now, I read that scene in comparison with the scene we saw of the priest (Mark) and priestess (Claire). Mark summoned Claire just as Allen did, Claire was very angry, but hadn't jumped out yet like Mana did immediately. So, the Earl ordered Claire to kill Mark to speed the process up (and because, as he says, she has to obey him now that she's an akuma).

The way I see it: The Earl doesn't need to order the recalled souls to kill those who recalled them. He can if he wants to, but their natural anger as akuma would provide enough impetus for them to do it 'on instinct' just as Mana did.

I think that if Allen's hand hadn't intervened, Mana would have done exactly as akuma-Claire did. I don't think he had any agency of his own that would enable him to choose to only curse Allen and stay down. I think that he was just cursing and attacking Allen when he came back in prelude to killing him outright (for the reasons I state above). (I made my claim bold since I presented a lot of plot discussion before it, and I didn't want it to get lost.)

As for the "welcome back" I'm pretty sure the mangaka is using the phrase, "Okaeri" in that Allen is welcoming Mana back "home" to be with him. I don't know for certain though because I haven't seen (and couldn't read anyway) the Japanese characters.

I just reread 131 too since I couldn't remember it properly. The 14th says, "My Allen and my Timcampi" and Cross knows about the room and about the piano (although he may not know about the music because he just says, "Play it and your will [will do the rest]")

After rereading that chapter though, I'm almost certain that Mana was the 14th. It's too bad nothing really happened in the last chapter and we still don't have more answers.

You mention and compare to the anime, but that's not entirely safe. Very often those who create the anime modify the original story, simplifying and altering it to make it "make more sense" to the viewers (I don't know why they do that). So, I wouldn't use it to prove anything about the manga.

:)

[tigerfantom]

Wow so earl didn't order him at all...maybe it was in the anime idk i did watch it like mad times and both that episode and the manga verison is a bit...well a whole lot different. I still think Mana had to curse Allen for a specific reason instead of killing him as an akuma for that true reason i really don't know if it's true but at any case like I said all will come together in the next chapter because though it's fun discussing about Mana and the 14th it's like mad long and confusing and misunderstandings and just too much work.....but I do remember that part when that mirror image said my timpacy but can't recall him saying allen so i got to reread soon.....so you think lulabell,jasidevi, and skin are really dead LOL!!!!

[tigerfantom]

I think i may have made an error on my hypothesist on Allen being a new noah. While rereading one of the chapters where Allen was in the room when he saw another figure as his reflection, the same figure who stoped him from going to lenalee in that dream. He was telling Allen to play the piano and saying stuff like play the piano it's the key ,sing the melody, yes that's it that's my wish ...and then when Allen was playing the piano he heard someone sing in his head. So now I think that Allen isn't a noah period he just has the will of the 14th noah which was stated, but I believe that the musician is alive in Allen because I believe that dark figure is indeed the 14th noah(bet everyone knew that by now), and how he got there can only be when mana who I strongly believe is the 14th noah fused with allen back in kroyry's castle. That's the only way I can make sense of this. And another reason i kinda believe this is if anyone played the first "Baten Katios" a character had another character who was believed to be dead still living on as a spirit inside him without his knowing. I think this is very possible and it would be crazy if it were ture!!!