[tigerfantom]

wow i feel left out i had to study so i caouldn't put my two cents up, but anyway hear i go.

Seeliepright there is a way allen could be a noah. Yes he was born with the innocent, and he wasn't born a noah ,but their is one thing everyone is forgetting. Skin boric wasn't born a noah right, he was changed into a noah three years prior to the battle with kanda. Remember he was trying to not to accept it and stuff it looked like he was being possessed by the noah spirit or wrath. If you don't remember the reason the noah clan are the way they are is because they have a noah spirit in them each with memories of the past as rhode said in noah memory 4 with skin boric, but then again why didn't tiki's noah die when allen exsorcied him???, unless what rhode again said that noahs can only be killed in their true forms, but pretty much what i'm trying to say is that Allen may have been born with the inocent, but he may have been given the noah spirit, and i can think of when he could have gotten it too...at kroyr's castle. Remember the skull going into his head saying the drakness has returned.. go deeper into the light and deeper into the darkness then they showed Mana. And if ya'll remember when allen was thought to be dead and he was in that crazy place and saw lenalee crying and tried to go to her his reflection changed into that noah spirit and told him he couldn't go, andddd while allen was playing the piano the spirit in the mirror and a voice in allen's head was singing....remember when skin kept hearing don't forgive him don't forgive him, yeah sounds pretty similar to me and could only mean one thing...ALLEN IS THE NEW NOAH!!!!

("Sorry for the caps I've been playing Pheniox Wright and everytime he has a point he yells it lol i'm such a dork")

And then ya'll might question why would the innocent accept the noah spirit, well the earl did say that the 14th betrayed them all and joined the innocent, and he tried to kill earl, which shows that he has changed sides. Oh and the 14th is not only the musician but as stated he is the "WILL OF NOAH"!!!!! can't remember when it was said but it was during the fight at japan after earl fired that big black bubble blast and lenalee crystal form showed up for the second time. But it is true seeliespright that the tim and allen could both hold the power of the ark since tim did hold the musical note, but what about the old man who also has a connection with Mr.14th what is his role..if i can remember correctly they say he holds the "Will" as in the "Will of Noah" maybe?? So three people could hold the power of the 14th The old man, Allen and tim(techinally he isn't a person), but what about Cross why didn't he accept the powers of the noah?? Could he not do it because he didn't know the language, or becuas ehe has two innocents, or the higher general would have questioned him or something, or because he's a dick and wanted it to be put upon allen...or as someone else said Mana knew he was the "Destroyer of Time" or as bookman said the "Destroyer of Milenium" as in the one to kill the earl. What do ya'll think about this because this is a pretty good theory

[seeliespright]

There's a bunch, so I'm just going to reply as I read through your theory and not read, sum up and come up with a fully coherent response.

It is true that Noahs aren't necessarily born that way. I actually think that only a few were actually born that way, Rhode for one - and perhaps someone we haven't yet met. Tiki could also have been born that way since he seems to have a great power that was just awakened. I think most of them though became Noahs by inheriting the Noah-ness the way Skin did.

But, I don't think someone with an Innocence could become a Noah, especially not someone with a parasitic Innocence tied to their body. I don't know if you know Christian theology, but there is a belief that Christians can never be possessed by demons because they already have the Holy Spirit inside of them. I think the Innocence is a similar thing; Allen or someone with a parasitic Innocence couldn't become a Noah because the Innocence is already in his body.

The skull going into Allen was either Mana's curse or mana's spirit. It was essentially tied with his eye, which was cursed by Mana. Yes, Mana was almost certainly a Noah, but Allen wasn't inheriting the Noah legacy there; it is a different transformation. He would have manifest the cross-shaped wounds like all of the Noahs if he had been indwelt with a Noah spirit.

I think the crazy place Allen was in was just a visionary plain, the possibility of what will happen if he fails in his calling. In the vision, the Noah was stopping Allen and wasn't really supposed to be his reflection. And later when the 14th appears in his reflection, it is behind him, not replacing his view. The same was the case in the ark: Allen saw the 14th through the glass and it spoke to him.

I don't remember precisely, but I think the singing voice in Allen's head was Timcampy. I could be totally off on that bit though since I haven't read it in some time.

I don't remember the old man so I can't respond to that. If you can direct me to the relevant portion, I'll look at it.

Cross wasn't offered the power of the Noah at any point we've seen; nor was Allen. Cross is a strange creature because he does and doesn't have two Innocences. All of the generals have an attack and defense Innocence, but he has that woman-corpse (I can't remember her name). She used to be an exorcist with a parasitic Innocence who died, and whom he has resurrected with his magic and uses her Innocence. So, he is able to utilize the power of two Innocences, but doesn't necessarily possess them both (in the sense of them both being tied to him (in the way the monkey is with the female general and the art-garden power is with the other). It's difficult to explain...

I think that's everything...

[tigerfantom]

Originally Posted by seeliespright

The skull going into Allen was either Mana's curse or mana's spirit. It was essentially tied with his eye, which was cursed by Mana...

ok well you say Allen couldn't be a noah because the innocent should reject so called demonic spirit of the noah right...well if the innocent can reject the noah spirit how come it didn't reject not only the curse to see akuma, but also Mana's spirit at the castle. I hear what you are saying about christains spirits and stuff, but let me ask you this, does the holy spirit in the religous person forces them to become holy?? Remember Suman Dark?? The other parasite exsorcist who was forced to fight in the war. And remember what happened to him when he beged for his life in front of tiki and betrayed his fellow comrades?? He transformed into a "FALLEN ONE" one who is punished by God or in this case the innocent himself. The innocent is a power granted to the apostles of God to fight the Earl, akuma and the Noah Clan, i don't think they count as holy spirits. But if you remember since you are a rhode fan, she stated back in the rewinding town ark that noah are the true apostle of God, though Allen said she was wrong and they got their powers from the devil or the wrong god as he stated, what if they were suppose to be the true apostle of god. What if they betrayed God sometime in the past?? Or thought god betrayed them?? Remember skin...Don't forgive him....Don't forgive the innocent...Don't forgive GOD!!?! What happened back during Noah's flood, back when the apostle of the cube fought the earl, why did follows of god betray him, that's if they were turly the true first apostle of God? SO let's say that they were, then Allen could accept the spirit right??

[seeliespright]

Allen does have a close connection with the Earl, but he's not a Noah. He never went through a process of transformation like that of Skin (the Earl being present and the "holy marks" of the Noah on his body). He also doesn't have any of the personality qualities: Dream, pleasure, lust, etc. He has only the ability to see akuma's spirits, and that through a cursed eye (although it is now bound to his entire skull). Allen is actually more akin to an akuma, and we have been told that his eye evolves like them. (And he would have become an akuma if it hadn't been for his hand.)

To respond to your points:

The Noah spirit is a completely different thing from the curse. The Noah spirit is a whole-body thing, and the curse on Allen was on his eye. Granted, now it is in his entire skull, but still not of the same nature as the Noah transformation.

The holy spirit in people doesn't force them to be holy. I don't think Suman Dark was cursed by god. I think he turned into what he did because of his own feelings.

The fact that the family is the family of Noah speaks a lot about the "true apostles" and such if we're basing it on Christian theology. Noah's daughters got him drunk at one point and had sex with him. And while he was a "man of god" he lived in a time when the whole world was sinful and displeasing to god and he was going to destroy all of humanity. It was only Noah and his family that he spared.

The Noah of D Gray Man seem to be the corrupt descendants of Noah, and the Earl has stepped into the picture and they are granted special powers.

I don't remember "the apostle of the cube" so I can't comment on that.

[itzjusdrama]

The old man, if I think we're talking about the one I think we are, appears in chapter 137, page 15.

And I think the apostle of the cube referred to was the original holder of the Innocence who prevented the Earl from destroying all of humanity, although The Earl managed to wipe out most of them.

I have nothing else to say in this. ^^; Wish I did.

[marksky01]

Wow each have his own theories.. On to the new chapter..

[tigerfantom]

ok three things and that's all i want to say....

One I meant to comment on the part where seeliespright said that timcampy might have been singing in allen's head????? uh tim can't speak, and if you reread it and i beg of you to reread that chapter i think it was 138 or around their the singer was coming from his head, or inside his head, thus the skull in which mana's spirit fused with remember. So it had to be mana.

TWO WOAHHHH are you serious about allen not becoming a akuma because of the innocent. Dude plz reread ch1 and how they are made because if i recall dead souls being brought back to from heaven and into the machine weapon called akuma skeloton!!!!

Three remember the earl said he don't know who could have the powers of the noah, so then therefore he wouldn't have known that allen recieved the noah spirit, oh and i just thought of something. I believe in order to actually become a full-fledged noah you also need the noah genes. Which could be why allen don't have those crosses on his head

And to just clarify i wasn't serious in this forum i was just shocked by the fact that assumptions on allen becoming a akuma was made, that's all LOL , but that could be in a way true but only in another way because remember when mana returned and his eye evolved and when he played the piano his eye was evolving...do anyone else see any connections in that???

[seeliespright]

I'll look at those bits.

About Allen becoming an akuma: The way the akuma are made is the soul is recalled into the akuma skeleton, it kills the person who summoned it and goes inside of the corpse. That is the initial form, and then the akuma evolves from there. That was made clear when the priest recalled his wife and she killed him. And they either told us there explicitly, or we were told later. So, if Allen's Innocence hadn't been part of him and stopped Mana, Mana would have killed Allen and then gone inside of his corpse and been an akuma. As it is, he just as an eye that evolves like the akuma.

[tigerfantom]

oh i misread you lol ok

[seeliespright]

After rereading that bit, it seems that Headquarters is suspecting Allen of inheriting part of the Will of the 14th Noah like that old man. I still don't think that's the case, just that he inherited control of the ark. Although we can't really say until we see the old man and more details are provided. :o/