[ZERO PHOENIX]

We have had a number of interesting discussions on this board. But let us put DEATH NOTE as a whole, aside. I merely wish for us to discuss what we think of JUSTICE. What is your idea of justice? How does it differ from what society perceives as justice. Address any other factors you feel are pertinent.

[death note rules]

there is no justice
all happens so just accept that

i half believe that and half beleive light's scence of justice

[Beth732]

Justice is the trademark of law.

Justice is also the word of self benefit.

So as Justice as the law, many people benefit, but a lot of people don't.

For example,

A criminal kills a person in self defense, yet his/her's family who's member was killed believes only: the criminal who killed their family member must be sent to prison for life, that is their justice. Yet the criminal who was sent away for life, only to have killed in defense, hadn't had his justice.

If the criminal was sent away for a year, that would be equal and real justice.

Justice is only self benefit, humans should never use the word justice because for us, justice is never equally obtained. It's sad really...

[TrisakAminawn]

I've said a lot to you before about what I think justice is, Zero, but let me see...

I've told you I think Justice really is a blind woman with a sword. There are two readings of the word 'Justice,' one as 'deserved punishment' and one as 'everything being as it fairly ought to be,' but the first definition is the one the law and Light Yagami use, and that is the one I will deal with here. Keep in mind that this is all merely my own constuct of reason, and simply because I do not say so in every sentence does not mean I expect you to agree.

Justice that hinges on 'punishment' is a violent existence. That is the sword. It cuts. It cannot create or heal, but it can at least wipe out whatever threat a human being poses. It does harm. Even with the best excuse, even when cutting off the probability of a greater harm, even with everyone in the world in accord with its actions, those actions are some form of harm. That is to say, a species of sin. Even with good reason, the one who executes justice does wrong--takes on a proportionate burden. This is not very much, perhaps, for a few years in jail, but a life sentence is a heavy thing, and a death is heavier, and no matter how much good is done by the deed, that weight exists.

But Justice cannot be allowed to know that. This is why she is blind. Justice can only go forward, raising her sword again and again and again with its bloodstains, if she is free of doubt. Because she is an ideal, because she is pure and absolute, because all of her is righteous retribution, she cannot realize that sin also is in her name, even when that name is used correctly and not taken in vain. She would go insane if she ever knew.

And she is also blind because she is blind. The executors of Justice see nothing for themselves. Justice must depend on what witnesses and lawyers and forensics men can say, just as Light Yagami depends on the news media. This is the heaviest of all. You can never be sure, as Justice, that you have sentenced correctly unless you have all the knowledge in the world. This is why judges who like to hand out death penalties give me the willies. The decision to take a life should not be anyone's to make. Yes, that man might be a murderer, which means his crime was deciding to take a life.

Sometimes that decision has to be made. Sometimes, because we are not strong enough to keep the world safe any other way. For that, we need blind Justice with her bleeding sword. At her best, she is innocent of any wrong intent. But she is never innocent of wrong.

Your turn?

[ZERO PHOENIX]

Um yeah, Trisak, I'm sorry you are such a vain and indignant person but you clearly have issues. Before you get all confrontational because of what ever problem you are suffering from, you should know that the only reason why I posted this was because I wanted us all to have a general area where we could all talk about Justice, Mercy, Peace and things of that nature without anyone getting all agressive. Look you degenerate sow! Everyone else has been most respectful and I to them as well. There was no need for you to be a fiend in these forums. As I already stated, and now I must repeat myself for someone as ignorant and as intolerant as you, I did not intend for any conflict to arise in this thread. All I wanted was a place where everyone could just share their views on justice and the like. If you felt that you were repeating yourself then it sounds like a personal problem. But you should know you ingrate, that your posts inspired me to create this thread. You and I have had our share of issues but when you argued that Light was NOT justice, I was thinking, well, perhaps we should set aside a thread to talk about Justice by itself. Without any confrontations, without too many heated arguments, just a thread where we can share our ideas about justice. You however, you wretched dispicable, cretin have warped this into yet another area where you can be as vain as you want. Look, I apologize to everyone on this forum , but you Trisak, are an irredeemable ASS!

[TrisakAminawn]

And here you are being scary again. I. Was. Explaining. What. I. Thought. Justice. Was. With a metaphor. I am no more of an idiot than you, I was not the one who started the insults, I have never been as vicious and lowbrow about them as you, and you are reacting like a madman. It's true I haven't seen you get on this badly with anyone else, so it must be something about my character you're reacting to, but I have never made any attempt to upset you, and that last post was made with perfect innocence. If I upset you...right there, if I upset you with that post, I am genuinely apologetic, because it wasn't meant to be aggressive toward anybody. But it was emotional, and on the negative side, so I guess you just... But it wasn't like that. It was just me.

And now I want to hear from you. I meant it, Zero-kun. I've always meant it. I'm sorry if the way I talk offends you so much. I'm sorry if my (rather silly) dramatic linguistic flourishes looked like lunges. But I am not trying to attack you. I did that once, after you attacked me, and I will never do it again. I want you to calm down and talk as if there was no such thing as an argument. As if I hadn't even said anything. Just as if it was someone else's thread and you wanted to post and say what you thought Justice was.

[ZERO PHOENIX]

Yes, I will answer you directly. But of course I am also speaking to anyone who is willing to listen. I think that my definition of Justice differs from Light's and L's perceptions thereof. You Trisak, mentioned in another thread that Light did not hold himself to the same standards or rules that he set for others. I know you to be correct. I feel that in this respect, Light was behaving like a spoiled child. I want to get my thoughts down about Justice before I forget so forgive my detour.

I think that Justice is brutal and unrelenting to offenders. One thing that I find myself studying as of late, and I will address this in a religious context so, if you find anything inappropriate or offensive then just tell me. But one of the things I have learned is that there is a difference between Justice and Mercy and the two are often confused. Justice is cruel, brutal, and never forgets. If a person steals, and they are punished, that is Justice. If a person steals for any reason and is punished, that is Justice. If a person steals and apologizes and are still punished, that is Justice. Justice in it's truest form is cruel, unyielding and it never forgets. Human beings, by our very nature, we do not want justice to be served. At least not when it comes to us.

To forgive someone for a sin they have committed is not Justice. It is Mercy. Justice is something that all people, including myself do not want when we are to be judged. I for one will be honest. Regardless of the different belief systems, I myself am in no mood to face a righteous God, being the sinner that I am by my very mortal nature. We all would prefer Mercy over Justice because mercy forgives, it does not keep a tally of our wrongdoing, it remembers no wrong. Like any human however, I find myself, hmmm, what is that word? Ah, in this respect. By my very nature I may find myself to be a hypocrite and here is why.

I would spare no evil in my quest to create a peaceful world. I have stated many times that I would use the DN to save us all. However, there will of course come the day when I would be judged and thus, may find myself to be as evil as all those I have done away with. I would of course, being the person I am, accept my punishment. But I would still be in favor of mercy sitting over there in the corner with his hands tied. I know it seems like I'm going all over the place. That's because I can't quite formulate exactly what I am thinking right now so if you want me to be clearer about something, just let me know.

But I think that Justice, real Justice is vicious. Something that humans yearn for but don't actually want. Justice holds everyone on the same scale, the same rules and all are punished according to those rules. Justice keeps a record of every wrong and knows what you did from the day you were born to the day you die and plans to sentence you accordingly. Mercy is different and the two are often confused with one another. So, like any human, I may want Justice when it comes to the wrongs of others but when it comes to my own, Mercy please. That's the nature of a sinner I suppose.

[TrisakAminawn]

Hmm, quite true, that was religious, so I won't open any cans of worms. Let me see. So, just to make sure, my only uncertain point--you don't think the word 'justice' carries the idea of 'wisdom,' or of a fitting punishment for every offense? Just of punishment?

Oh, and here's my first Shakespeare on this forum. Not so much to make any argument using it as because you brought it to mind with the mercy/justice dichotomy. Portia to Shylock:

The quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as the gentle rain from Heaven upon the place beneath...Then earthly power doth then show likest God's when mercy seasons justice."

[ZERO PHOENIX]

I do in fact believe that Justice does carry the idea of wisdom and a fitting punishment. However true Justice always punishes regardless of whether or not a person has redeemed themselves. That is why Mercy is so much more important.

[Love_ookami]

My opinion is; regardless the reason,taking out someone who`s defenseless makes you nothing but an evil coward.