[ZERO PHOENIX]

Hey gang. I'm pretty sure most you have finished DEATH NOTE or at least know how it ends via some source. What I thought might be a good idea is if we all take some time out to just reevaluate the characters, premise, series, whatever you guys want. Questions you want to keep in mind are, how has my view of the characters (story, myself, etc.) changed throughout the story. This forum is open to everyone but if you haven't finished reading or watching DN, there may be some spoilers. Flash, Trisak, Midget, SoulReaper, everyone, lets ride. I'll start first with some of the characters.

[ZERO PHOENIX]

L ~ My feelings toward L have changed only slightly. I do find L to be rather captivating and his quirks are actually kind of cool. Like the way he sits for example. I still however dislike L as a character. Too me, L is either cowardly or heartless. Hmmm, well, I don't like his methods. For example, of course we all knew that Light was Kira but let me give you an example of what I mean. When L wanted Light's father to kidnap him, break him out, whatever, and they were in the car, L wanted Light's dad to threaten him at gun point to test whether or not Light and Misa was Kira and the 2nd Kira. Because if Light's dad had died, either Light or Misa would have done it proving that one or both of them was Kira. Here is my problem. L used Light's old man to do this. Suppose, just suppose Light really wasn't Kira, and suppose his old man did blow his head off in that car. Not so justified now is it? L's methods can and have proven to be just as brutal as Light's in some instances but whereas Light is usually punishing evil (the sex offender at the train station) L is doing so on an guess (detaining Misa and restraining her in the manner he did). Granted, Light and Misa were indeed Kira and the 2K yes, but L did not know this for certain. Even if he was 99 percent sure, that is not 100 percent and thus his methods were wrong according to his justice. Which brings me to another reason I do not like L. The fanfare. Because L claims to be just, he gets away with so much. Now if this was Light who came up with this plan, people would be having their torches and spears claiming him to be villainous. But because it's L, all of a sudden it's for justice. I am certain that I have more to say of L, but this will do for now.

Misa ~ Well, when she first introduced herself, I felt that she was unique because her bright and bubbly personality felt out of place in DN but somehow appropriate. She was also a willing and thus, appropriate tool for Light to use. However, she became annoying after she had overstayed her welcome, outlived her purpose. I feel that Misa was a tool and should have thus remained as such. She had neither the personality nor the appeal to be more than that. In conclusion, she became annoying.

Light Yagami ~ Ahhhh, yes. Light Yagami. I still find myself in support of some of Light's actions and motivations but largely, my support has dwindled. (Anyone here familiar with Code Geass? Zero, yeah he's a main character)! Ahem, more to the point I was very much disappointed in him. Granted, at the beginning I found him a most impressive character, far superior to L and the world of DEATH NOTE. Light stood alone. However, there were certain incidents in which he showed his @$$. When he fell for L's trick using Lind Taylor I believe. Zero Phoenix would never be so foolish! How could a genius (snicker) fall for such a weak trick. Also, there was when he started to lose his cool when Naomi Misora was a few moves ahead of him. Every real strategist knows that the moment you lose your cool, you lose the battle. Though my flames burn bright, they are most tame under pressure. If anything, Light should have looked positively at the entire situation and addressed it as a challenge. And a soldier, a warrior, a man, a god does not shriek at a challenged but instead, rises to meet it. And if Light was indeed to be a god, he should have known that there were no obstacles and thus, he should have assessed the situation with a cool head. Before that, there was when Light killed those FBI agents. (If this were L most people would have been cool with it anyway). But regardless of the reason, it is NEVER okay to kill the innocent or put them in danger. That is why we refer to such scenarios as sacrifices and the people as victims. There is no justification. It was merely unavoidable. That is why we use those words! But for someone of Light's "intelligence," he should have easily seen a better way to handle the situation. His impatience and arrogance I feel was the greatest detriment to his character. Why oh why must one gloat? When you take someone out you don't brag about, nor do you drag it out in some childish game of cat and mouse. Whether it is Death Note, or the real world, the same rules apply. Ride or get rolled on. I also felt that Light's impatience was indeed a problem. When becoming a god, when ascending to that level, it require patience more than anything. In Hinduism for example, even in the best case scenario you have to go through the six paths of pain. That means you start at the bottom, you live, you die, and work your way up through reincarnation. Of course there is more to it than that but this is just an example. Impatience, Hubris, Fear, these are not the tenents of a god. If Light Yagami was working his way towards godhood, he should have rolled with my man Pain over @ Naruto.

Near ~ Ah yes. He took me by a most pleasant surprise. Near I felt was greater than Light Yagami in many ways and by that extension, greater than L. I like Near because he went further than L in dealing with evil, but not as far as Light in manipulating the innocent. I can't really say I care much about how Light used those villains because really, why would I? And I felt that L's tactics in dealing with villainy didn't go nearly far enough. Near however I felt had a perfect balance. I also felt that in terms of intelligence he surpassed both Light and L and I will explain why (or how). It didn't take long for Near to figure out that Light was Kira. L only had his suspicions remember? Near however was certain almost from the beginning that Light was Kira. In a matter of (lets say days maybe for the purposes of time) Near KNEW that the current L was not the L he had come to know. He also knew that the new L was Light and he also knew that Light was Kira. In addition, in that one episode, he figured out that Mikami was Light's right hand in just a few seconds. When he thought of all the people who Kira's right hand could be, he just thought for a few seconds and boom, Mikami Teru. In addition, he doesn't use people the way L did or at least he doesn't go as far. For example, when Aizawa was telling Near about his surveillance of Light, Near did not want him to do anything else. He explicitly told Aizawa not to take any action on his own. More than likely, L would have put Aizawa in danger like he did Light and Misa before he knew for certain they were Kira and Kira 2. I feel that Near is also above the DN. We have already seen that Light has used the DN and I am certain that L would have used it and hidden behind the veil of justice. Near however is different. I think from Near's perspective, the DN may as well be a toy for people who have nothing else better to do. I think that is the way that Near looks at it. Of course, Ohba will have a different perspective but that is my view of Near. I feel that if anyone in DN were capable of becoming god of a new world it would be Near.

[TrisakAminawn]

Mmkay... (No, I didn't know this existed until I read your last post on 'Light is Justice.' I don't live on these forums, I just respond to the ones I have set to 'alert' when anyone says anything on them. >> Sorry.) Hey, I always wondered if you were named after Lelouch's code name, but there was never an opportune moment to ask! I think I saw a compare thread on those while I was looking for this one, so I'll head over... Except, wait, I'll get spoilers. I need to catch up with the series. Blah. I've only hit the place where Euphemia innocently dealt what seems to have been a death-blow to Zero's Dark Knight career.

Let's see. I went off Light too. I'd forgotten until I went back to look at the early manga just how hard he was not to like at the beginning, even if you saw his behavior as psychotic egoism. He had real charisma. It started to burn off in the second volume, and by volume eight there was nothing likable about him anymore. Partly it was that at the beginning we hadn't seen how far he would go, but he also changed. He died, I think. He killed off half his own vitality as he became Kira, all the 'human' bits of him that got in the way of being 'God.' Whatever moral framework and kindness he started with. (Looks like there was some after all, based on his memory-wiped behavior.) Then once L was dead, and the process of being Kira was down to a science, and there were no more challenges, the part of him that had risen to that challenge died off, too--the part that had never been alive, because his life was easy and he was 'bored'. That part, which made him Kira, might have been amoral and selfishly vicious, but at least it was an existence with vitality. After he didn't have anything to fight, Kira fell apart. I might not have been able to forgive him, but I didn't despise him until he became so empty and pathetic. That awful death scene looked like just the end of the rotting process to me. (Hey, you agreed with me about some of this stuff, Zero? Would it have hurt to agree that it was bad to kill the FBI guys? You had me thinking you were nuts, and that was confusing, because you didn't seem nuts away from that topic. )

I have to add something to the beginning of your chronology of Misa, I think. Briefly, very briefly at the start, she was a character. Not a great one, but a real one. Then Light got control of her, and she became a tool, and became steadily more annoying. By the time L died, she was a pointless existence, as far as her worth to the 'story,' but Light would have had a much harder time from then on if he hadn't had her. I mean, she was Kira for him, after all. Hard to fit that kind of thing into the busy schedule of 'L.'

Don't care about Near. He was pretty cool, really, but he didn't engage me. No opinion. L, though...he wasn't nice, but I think he cared a bit. Shrug. I don't know how to convince you (you is Zero, since he's the only other person on this thread so far) that I'm not an irrational fan with a gold-draped bier upon which to carry his dead body, but I think he had more integrity than Light. That said, he wasn't a soft or well-behaved person, and his charisma went down somewhat over time as well. Light's internal monologues were a hundred times more vicious than the face he showed the world; L's internal monologues were nicer than he ever acted. And he was willing to go up on screen and die when Misa was holding the police chiefs hostage, but Light was never willing to die for anything. So he wasn't as bad. That's all I can say.

I'll also throw in Matsuda. Because I kind of liked him. His first move in the manga was when he stood up and brought up the fact that violent-crime rates had fallen since Kira had gone into action. I liked that, and his dialogue with Soichiro later. He was a really good character. >> Then his main job became 'be stupid and annoying.' That was too bad. I think the bosses took that a little too far. But he got to shoot Light in the end and be part of the final dialogue! Matsuda for the win, or something otaku-ish like that...

[ZERO PHOENIX]

See, I think we can get along just fine. I agree with a lot of your points. There were quite a few so I picked out like, four of them. I will also respond to directly to you since, well, we're the only people on this thread right now. Oh, the name Zero Phoenix. I was actually working on a story awhile back where my main character went by two aliases. Zero Phoenix and Czar Kaiser. I have just recently (about 4 or 5) weeks ago discovered Code Geass and thought it was pretty cool. Also, that is around the time I became discontented with Light because Zero was just so much better.

"He died, I think. He killed off half his own vitality as he became Kira, all the 'human' bits of him that got in the way of being 'God.' Whatever moral framework and kindness he started with. (Looks like there was some after all, based on his memory-wiped behavior.)"

Indeed. At the start of the series, Light did seem more caring for his fellow man and he was truly vexed whenever he saw harm being committed. He even freaked out a couple times after using the DN before he decided that he could use it. The problem I feel, is that when he killed off all the human bits you spoke off. He became cold, complacent, selfish. These are not the tenets of a god? I highly doubt that Pain from Naruto is a god but compared to Light, Pain definitely has more qualities in that aspect. I understand that Light was throwing away everything he didn't need, but a god needs compassion, needs love. What a god does not need is hubris. And that is where he messed up. What good is salt when it has lost it's saltiness? It is good for nothing other than to be thrown out and trampled under foot.

"That part, which made him Kira, might have been amoral and selfishly vicious, but at least it was an existence with vitality. After he didn't have anything to fight, Kira fell apart."

Hm, agreed. I feel that once Light felt he had accomplished something (killing L), he just gave up. Dostoevsky argued that Man likes to work on projects but never complete them. He argued that once Man completes what he has set out to do, he will become hopelessly depressed and useless because having completed his work, he has nothing else to do and thus, nothing to live for. I think this was true of Light. After L died, Light didn't have much motivation to continue.

(Hey, you agreed with me about some of this stuff, Zero? Would it have hurt to agree that it was bad to kill the FBI guys? You had me thinking you were nuts, and that was confusing, because you didn't seem nuts away from that topic.)

Of course I agree with you Trisak! When Light killed Raye Penler I was like, oh hell no. Of course sacrifices must be made, and it is not above a god to do such things. However, when he killed all those FBI agents, to me it seemed that he was either taking an easy way out, or that he was getting a thrill out of the kill. I felt that someone as "intelligent" as Light, someone who is a (snickers) genius, should be able to easily cover his tracks without killing the innocent. (Another reason I think Zero is superior to Light).

"I don't know how to convince you (you is Zero, since he's the only other person on this thread so far) that I'm not an irrational fan with a gold-draped bier upon which to carry his dead body, but I think he had more integrity than Light."

I think in some respects, L did have more integrity than Light. Although L sometimes put innocent, or presumeably innocent people at risk, he never killed them outright. Compared to Light killing Penler, those FBI agents, and Misora. And man, what a way to die at the end. I have never been so disgusted with any character I can remember.

[WolvenLordSoulReaper]

Having read the complete series...

Light: Was a school kid with an ideal and the belief he could change his world for the positive even while having to use a negative tool to do so. That was Light at the beginning and that was why we all loved him. Then he.. I don't know, he just changed!! (Sorry, I've been moderating to many Shoujo's, LOL.) But in the end, Absolute Power Corrupted Absolutely... (BTW: I believe that the above could easily have applied to a very young Hitler, as well.)

Misa: Never really liked her. Isn't she like, the Jar-Jar of D.N.? Though I've done extensive analysis on her and given her a psychological benefit of the doubt... but in the end, as harsh as it sounds, the only service she did to society was extinguishing her own life.

Raye Penbur: Was an F.B.I. agent. And that seems to be all he was.

Naomi Misura-soon-to-be-Penbur: Very bright intelligent woman with a sharp head on her shoulders who chose the one worst moment in her entire lifespan to have a trusting 'brainfart'.

Souichiro: A true hero. An honorable father who would live and die by the code his son so cavalierly discarded in the name of 'Justice'. In many ways, the contrast reminds of a Biblical instance where many 'will come and say, did we not heal and raise the dead and cast out demons all in your name?!' Depart from me, Light Yagami!!

L: Holds high ideals of 'Justice', just like Light Yagami. The methodology of dispensing said 'Justice' is quite different; but the motive to do so is identical to Light's... L too, needs to fuel his own ego.

Near: Not as deductive as L. Motives for doing what he does are purer, more chidlike, as is his thinking.

Mellow: Childlike as well, though in the negative sense. I consider Mellow to actually be the worse part of L, combined with the best part of Light. He really believes in what he's doing, but won't go to quite the lengths Light does to achieve 'peace'. Not quite as deluded as Light either. Mellow knows he's good, but does not hinge his plans on the fact.

Linder: Rock solid and cool to the core. Soft spot for Mellow, unhindered by her feelings for him. She does what she has to, and is not used to clarifying decisions with superiors. If she believes her actions are reasonable, will step outside of authoritative jurisprudence and feign acceptance of authority dictums in the matter.

Lester: Highly competent. By-the-book, but prefers the dissolution of a potential threat before it becomes unmanageable. Does not think, in this regard, that use of excessive force is unquestionable. Will defer to more sound judgment, even if uncomfortable with the decision.

Jevanni: Quiet. Reclusive. You never truly know what he's thinking. Given the lack of direction from Near in the majority of the case, I believe that he's considered a 'free agent' and is only directed when absolutely necessary. He's a scout, his eyes are everywhere and little escapes his attention. He's very detail oriented, as we can deduce that he is in the intelligence field, and you don't live long there without paying attention to the small things.

Will continue...

[TrisakAminawn]

Wow, Wolven, you're thorough. ^^ Yay, Zero! Hopefully, we can get along. Ooh, Dostoevsky and the Bible in one post. I always liked Souichiro, but I seem to have this habit of liking characters who are 'people's parents,' so I thought maybe I was reflecting some kind of personal bias. Misa didn't kill herself in the manga, though. Not that I'm trying to be argumentative, but, you know, I don't think that power-corrupts could apply to a young Hitler, because young Hitler had no power. He campaigned ceaselessly and with some nasty rhetoric to achieve a position of political power, and they made him Chancellor of the Weimar republic after he'd already written Mein Kampf, and he parlayed that into the powerful Fuhrer position he wound up in (well, he wound up dead, just like Light, but everybody does that, so what does it matter?) Anyway, point is, the initial power dropped on Light's head, and he had the kind of habitually superior, bored, vaguely idealistic personality that turned that vast but extremely limited power into what it did.

On that note, you calling Near and Mellow childish (which they are) reminded me that I'm struck by how immature the form of Light's ideals are. Obviously, we know all these geniuses are childish, and on the one hand 'idealism' is a simplistic way of thinking in the first place, so there's a limit to its complexity, but I keep being resistant to the idea of even initial Light as 'idealist' because his one 'ideal' that I can find is 'if I kill enough bad people, the world will become a better place,' even though he also says things like 'humans are selfish, two-faced creatures.' If you aren't positive about human nature, can you really believe that the world will get better from killing bad people? (Especially since so many of them are already in prison and he's not even preventing them from committing crimes?) I mean, obviously he'd never given his own opinions the slightest examination for consistency, but given how generally cynical he is about 'people,' including his followers and even in some respects himself, I keep finding him hard to swallow as an idealist. Does this make any sense?

Oh, but (sorry, have to say this, it and his clothes seem to have formed my entire first impression of grown-up Mellow ): who thinks that bringing the actual head of a Kira-proof Mafia boss as his in-ticket makes Mellow's goodness kind of...abstract? That quite apart from being the direct killer of Souichiro and everything. I loved the way he and Near finally took down Light by working off of one another, don't get me wrong.

[WolvenLordSoulReaper]

Makes perfect sense indeed. What I must make allowance for there, however, is that an ideal is an ideal no matter what one's relative position on the matter is. Though oxymoronic at first, let me surmise the point behind that sentiment a little more deeply.

In your example, you point out that Light has a certain way of thinking, but then highlight that you doubt the veracity of Light's thoughts by displaying a list of actions, if you will. Light thinks this, but then does this. (Admittedly, his perceptions tie into his thoughts, but I'll address event that in a minute.)

To get a proper understanding on whether an 'idealist is an idealist even when he acts against his ideals', we must first establish three critical elements; #1: What exactly is the subject's 'ideal', and #2: What exactly is the subject's perception of that ideal, and #3: What is the subject wiling to do to establish the conditions ripe for bringing that ideal about?

As to the actual ideal itself, it could be something as illusory or vain as 'world peace'. Interestingly enough, when I looked up the word ideal to give its definition here as a working basis, I found some very interesting definitions, all of which apply to Light!!

The most common definition, and the one I assume that you are working by, as was I; is actually a secondary definition.

1 ide.al \i-'del\ adj. 1: existing only in the mind: IMAGINARY; also: lacking practicality 2: of or relating to an ideal or perfection: PERFECT

2 ideal n. 1: a standard of excellence 2: on regarded as a model worthy of imitation 3: GOAL

Now, let's take the ideal of 'Justice'. Robin Hood lived by the code of 'Justice' as well. That was his 'ideal'. His perception of that 'ideal' was that rulers unfairly taxing the people was a violation of his preconceived precept of Justice. Based on that, he would go about using blunt force to steal an owner's rightful property and give it to those he deemed worthy by his profiling requirements. That was Justice for Robin Hood.

For Light Yagami, his ideal was Justice, same as Robin Hood's. Like Robin Hood, Light was willing to step above the Law in the name of Justice. Light's precept of Justice was that those who bullied and committed crimes against the weaker ones should be punished by death. Notice that not once does Light ever deviate from this precept.

Many mistakenly believe that when Light began killing 'innocents' such as Penbur, Naomi, and so on, that he actually deviated from his ideal of Justice, when in fact, he had not. He simply compounded it with, 'and if anyone hinders my plans, they too shall be judged'. No deviation, just expounded on the initial premise for sake of necessity, or at least, perceived necessity on Light Yagami's part. And even when the thing turned more into a game for Light, a premise of his basic ideals still survived throughout.

My primary point with Hitler was, admittedly, a little vague. The initial premise I was working on was a rooted sense of self-empowerment by a very young Hitler's own realization that somehow, someway, he was committed to becoming the most powerful man in history. Inevitably that self-empowerment would play out in the decisions in his life, causing him to pursue certain actions with the determined and resolute notion that he would succeed in his plans... even were he doing what he did against all sound and conventional wisdom. That is a perseverance of soul that very few have been aware of in heir lives.

Mellow? First of all, he did not kill Souichiro; his dying hired gunman did:-) Admittedly, Mellow did have the blood of the S.P.K.'s members on his head, there's no escaping that. But overall, he seemed reluctant to spill blood when possible.

[death note rules]

has anyone read the l.a b.b murder case


and if so what do you think of B

[WolvenLordSoulReaper]

Haven't yet read it. Read some spoilers online though. Dude's a freaking fruitcake from what i saw.
But that wasn't much... so...