[Aigirl]

Hal Lidner was not used by Near or Mello; She stated herself in the manga that she was not on anyone's side, she was just trying to catch Kira.

She enabled that capture by her unique position as Kiyomi's bodyguard and the only individual connected to all three: Kiyomi, Near and Mello.

Kira would never have been caught if it weren't for her (as the story stood) and she never would have been in that position if she weren't female, and therefore, UNDERESTIMATED by EVERYONE (notice how Near doesn't realize she's in contact with Mello because he underestimates her "loyalty" to him; Mello doesn't completely trust her because he thinks she's loyal to Near; and Light ignores her bodyguard post because he thinks he's winning...)

As for how the story would be different if the ladies therein were given more screentime, I sorely wish Misa would've been punished for being the selfish mass-murderer she was. I have no idea why Rem loved her; she killed innocent people for her own gain, even before she met Kira. And afterwards, well, "My boyfriend told me to..." is not a great excuse in court.

I'd love to see Misa go down

*OffTopic* why is Matsuda an acolyte? He came to his senses in the end and almost killed Light. I read the last chapter of the last book a few times over thinking "if all this happened to make Matsuda into a better detective, maybe it was worth it!" LOL

[WolvenLordSoulReaper]

Hey, that was cool! Now I don't have to do the Lidner thread I was promising to do because you covered most of what I would've with only one exception... She so had the hots for mellow, END OF STORY

[Aigirl]

Thanks, WolvenLordSoulReaper! That's great praise; I really appreciate it!

No way did Lidner have the hots for Mello, though. She was too smart and mature to be taken by a young, volatile mass-murderer. And as I think everyone brought up in Wammy's House was emotionally and sexually stunted, I do not think that Mello had the hots for her, or anyone else, for that matter.

Besides for Lidner, I like Flash Master's take on Sachiko Yagami as a strong female character. I would love to see how they explained Light's death to her; to see if she noticed that on the day Light died, the Kira killings stopped. Leaving the poor woman alone to care for her catatonic daughter (although how Sayu became catatonic is never quite explained).

[TrisakAminawn]

The point that Wolven's numbers don't hit is that while there were loads of weak men and weak women, and men and women that were used, and men and women that survived, there were 1) far fewer women and 2) no women who were really important. The really important figures were Light and L. Under them were Soichiro Yagami, the other task force guys, and Misa. If Misa hadn't turned herself into a human addendum to Light, and/or turned out to be a fool, she could have been a major character, but she did, so she wasn't. If Naomi Misura had had better luck and not happened to meet Light, or not trusted him with her name, she could have been a brilliant major character. Even though she was more emotional than any of the other major characters. But he got her. The series never says only women are weak and usable, it just says they're less cool when you use them (I mean, can you see Misa or Takada ever being as cool as Mikami? Lidner's fairly 'cool,' but she's still not as cool as the guys around her), and they can never be as important to the world as really strong men.

That's the sticking point. As secondary characters women are fine, and as human as any ordinary man, they just aren't good for anything really tough. Vanishingly few men could be L or Light, either. No one in the world, probably. Actually, I think a woman could have been L, (given the intelligence, of course,) although if she wanted to get anything done she would have had to conceal herself rather more carefully, and/or go to rather more trouble to get the task force, et. al., to take her seriously. Because people, like Flash, will believe more of a strange man than a strange women, so a man can get more done in a leadership position with less effort. Bugger, isn't it?

A woman could have been Light, too. Do you see Misa crying over someone else's pain or caring that she hurt anyone? She heard that a shinigami had died for her and her first thought was whether she could use that to kill off Rem. Women can be heartless without being stupid--and it was her stupidity, and possessiveness, and the sense she had that she should attach herself to power, that made her Light's creature; not her 'heart.' Her emotional range was almost identical to Light's, except for the desire to attach herself to a stronger person and never let go. This was either her nature or her training as a woman. Probably both. A person like Misa who was smarter, more independent, and had a strong sense of 'justice' would make a perfectly creditable Kira. What you need to be Kira, apart from the note and the brilliance, is no personal challenges, absolute self-confidence, complete selfishness, and a total lack of empathy.

Meaning it would be less likely for a female of the species to turn out that kind of bastard, because it's damn hard to grow up female with that kind of unquestioned bumptious self-certainty. But that's the hard part. The idea that hearing that Naomi was after her fiance's killer would break a woman's resolve is ridiculous. It may be that women average a higher rate of kindness than men, but they aren't made of sympathy, and any woman who had killed hundreds as Light had would be more likely to despise another woman for having no purpose in life without her man except to avenge him, than to take pity on her.

[TrisakAminawn]

I'm not paying much attention to the second half of the series because no one was very strong there, women included. Men were still stronger. No woman exists without a man to whom she belongs, except Wedy. And she barely exists, so there's not much to say in terms of characterization.

Fewer women do enter serial killing. This is largely because it is a whole lot harder for them. The thing about serial killing is that you have to get away with it, repeatedly. A woman can kill anyone with a gun, but it's hard to hide having done that than a garrote, knife, poison, beating, strangling, etc., because a gun goes bang. So, unless she was particularly powerful of body as well as violently pathological, before a woman could be a practical serial killer she would need a way to immobilize the target. I'm seeing...a prostitute with chloroform? O.o; Who's going to those embarrassing and hazardous lengths? Maybe you could hire a giggolo and kill him. I don't know. Expensive, though. (Also, many murders are unsolved every year. If a woman serial-kills women, which it is rather easier for her to do, who's going to suspect her? It's 'a thing men do.') Besides the practical problems with violent assault, most men who enter serial killing are at least partially sexually motivated. Women's sexual impulses run slightly less to 'rip his (or her) belly open!' Women who feel the need to destroy people are constrained to, and more willing to, do it in less outright ways.

For which the Death Note is perfect.

But the audience couldn't believe in the story, couldn't follow the story, if it wasn't a face-off between men. If one had been a woman, it would have been much more balanced to turn into a romance, and no one would have been able to forget it, and if both had been girls it would have been 'epic catfight.' If a woman does it, it isn't as important. So those who write fiction are always better off with a man, and unless they're writing for a female audience, they'll use one. It's a well-known fact that women will watch men, but most men have no interest in watching women unless they take their clothes off.

(Incidentally, Pre-Menstrual Syndrome is not, in fact, a recipe for ill-tempered illogical behavior in all women. This is a stereotype. Some get irritable. Some get energetic, some get listless, some get less socially awkward, and some just want sweets.)

So...yes, Death Note is extremely sexist, but not actively so. It falls in line with the popular understanding that women can be perfectly okay, but never as good as the equivalent man. Hikaru no Go is even worse that way, and you know, since the writer for that series is a woman it was that that got me comparing the characterizations and plot-shapes of the two series and thinking how odd it is that Takeshi Obata always collaborates in his work and yet sets such a distinctive stamp into everything. What, does he insist on a partnership and then dominate it? Shouldn't jump to conclusions from just two examples, though.

[TrisakAminawn]

Should add that AIgirl is right about Lidner. ^_^

[ZERO PHOENIX]

Sorry I'm going to rush this but I just wanted to spare a few words for Naomi Misura. I have to say that I found her incredibly impressive. She was always a step or two ahead of Light and she really put him into a panic. He starting freaking out over the possibility that his dad might call and all he really had to do was turn off his cell. He began to question himself and even consider the eye deal. I have to say that although she wasn't around long, she had a type of intelligence that I found admirable, and I'm sure that Light found terrifying. If only they had never met, she would have owned him. Maybe.

[WolvenLordSoulReaper]

I thought the D.N. forum quieted down some. My bad. Now I must get busy, though this will be less work than The ROA, right TA?

In order from the top on down, this time, as I can.

@Aigirl: I never once believed that Mellow had feelings for Lidner. Unrequited Love, anyone?

@TA: (Part the First:-) First of all, what in God's name is everybody's ridiculous precept that M.T. is cool?! I literally cannot fathom that. The man was intelligent, but in precipitation of fervent servitude, he lost all bearing on sound funtionability. He became one of those idiotic drone mechs you see in Star Wars. i got so stoked when I heard about this guy, and when I finally hit the part of the mnaga where he came in, I was totally flabbergasted!! This... this was the dreaded Mikami Teru? Thanx, I'll take a number. Next...

Second of all, I still maintain that, in perspective of function, there were at least almost as many worthless men as women. Light had the entire SPK stumped until Mellow started thinking for them, and Matsuda and Mogi were virtual pet rocks. Aizawa became cool, but... like... at the very last freaking chapter!!

Mellow was, indeed, awesome; as was Jevanni. Matt... to quote user Mikami_Teru (who I really miss)... What? He spoke like six words. Mellow's other syndicate thugs were a collective waste of ink.

Lester freaking rocked, but was still somewhat high on the top-spin, if you catch my drift. Lidner contributed way more than Lester did, and I'm not just stating for visual appeal, either.

Yotsuba. All male, and one of the cheapest plot gimmicks since Dan Brown's forced anagrams in Angels and Demons. (My god... they're actually making a movie out of that?!)

Raye Penbur. A.K.A. Footnote... Mile Marker... Rest Stop, you get the picture:-) Naomi had way more staying power. But I digress.

For the most part, the serial murder point is quite correct... but you did overlook one crucial aspect there... the infamous Black Widows. Selectively few, yes; but in numbers significant enough to make them an occasional task force nightmare, as well as a sometime LMN movie-of-the-week. (Yes, I went out-of-order on that, was reading backwards, upwards, whatever.)

The Misa Factor: Though I agree with much of what you said here, a few things need factored. #1: Her age. Much younger than Light, she would be somewhat brazen, and not yet have fully developed a thought process of rationalizing right and wrong. Like Thomson's ridiculous anti-gaming platform, you could rightly argue that the concept of remote killing would factor into a lack of value regarding human life. It would be far easier to disassociate one's self from the ramifications of the action, if one never saw the face of the one they were killing (figuratively speaking, of course).

#2: The circumstances of her parents' deaths. The thought process probably went something like this, (though I truly shudder to enter Misa Ammane's mind, even for a second),: Murderer kills my parents gets away with it. I should kill murderer, it would be right. (Kira intervenes.) Yeah! Kira kills murderer. Kira must have Misa's interests in mind. Misa worships Kira.

With her parents' deaths, she would have had a need for someone to fill that authoritative role. If... BIG IF... Light actually cared about MIsa, and others like her, I might have been able to sympathize better with him...

I shudder to ask how you could reel off (I'm assuming from personal experiences) so many signs and symptoms of P.M.S.:-)

Male authors writing sexist literature? True. But one mangaka's defence i readily rush to: Tito Kube's. Though women are often used for 'romantical fillers', that's clearly not the case in Bleach... where's there's hardly any romance to be spoken of.

(And I come to my own defense on that. If you're curious, check out my Blade of Fate Story in Artist's Haven:-) Romance, yeah. Filler... no way!!:-)

ZERO, I agree with everything you said about Naomi... that's what made her demise all the more painful. (I was waiting for some awesome shocker reveal, like the Driver's Liscence she presented belonged to her deceased twin sister, or something. One of these days I'll publish that story:-)

[rozzy]

Originally Posted by dragoonv76

i do agree that all the women in this manga did serve a purpose in this story...but they all seem to be used by the men in some way or another.

light manipulated misa and that reporter chick, additionally he basically tricked naomi into her grave
L hired that spy chick
Mello kidnapped and used light's sister as hostage
Near had that fbi chick working for him.

now...i dont think i missed anyone one...but did any of them actually do anything for themselves?

i agree that most were used ... the ones that were with light definetly were...jeese, if there was a guy like him around doing that i would beat him up misa was funi but slightly annoying and the reporter woman was down right stoopid. but the girl working with near seemed to be the best. she wasnt used as such and she was cool.

[rozzy]

i think girls could have had better roles in this manga. and if the girls werent so in love with light, there could have been even more interesting story lines if thats even possible. but i still love this manga!!!